Thursday, August 13, 2009

This Shit is Serious

For a while now I've been deeply and profoundly sad about those who protest the health care bill. Many of them are being used and manipulated into this because they have been lied to by the insurance and pharmaceutical companies because it is in their best interest to keep things the same. I want to hold my head in my hands and cry for months. My heart is so heavy, and I can hardly breathe. I've spent almost 40 years trying to teach students to think - to analyze information and come to logical conclusions - to support their opinions with facts - to articulate their thoughts. At least it worked with my son.

I see people on the news saying there is a death panel and Obama wants to kill old people and wonder if they've never been to a doctor or a hospital where we're routinely asked if we have a living will. That's all that meant. Nothing more. A living will. We should all have one, so our wishes for our end-of-life care are honored.

Then I see armed citizens at town hall meetings with posters threatening legislators and the president. This scares the hell out of me. I break out in a cold sweat and my heart pounds. I'm about to cry again. I hoped we'd gotten beyond this. Not.

The 1960s were marked by several notable assassinations that we were bombarded with. I don't want us to go through any more times like that. It was too much back then. I wish we could learn from the past and move beyond it.

* A Belgian and Congolese firing squad assassinated Patrice Lumumba, the Prime Minister of the Republic of the Congo, on January 17, 1961, outside Lubumbashi, Democratic Republic of the Congo.
* A member of the Ku Klux Klan assassinated Medgar Evers, a NAACP field secretary, on June 12, 1963, in Jackson, Mississippi.
* Duong Hieu Nghia and Nguyen Van Nhung assassinated Vietnamese president Ngo Dinh Diem, along with his brother and chief political adviser, Ngo Dinh Nhu, in the back of an APC on November 2, 1963.
* Lee Harvey Oswald, according to the report issued by the Warren Commission, assassinated US President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, in his car during a parade in Dallas, Texas. See JFK assassination for more details.
* Members of the Nation of Islam assassinated Malcolm X on February 21, 1965, in New York City, although there has been a dispute about which members killed Malcolm X.
* John Patler assassinated George Lincoln Rockwell, leader of the American Nazi Party, on August 25, 1967, in Arlington, Virginia.
* James Earl Ray was convicted of having assassinated civil rights leader Martin Luther King, Jr. on April 4, 1968, in Memphis, Tennessee.
* Sirhan Sirhan assassinated Senator Robert F. Kennedy on June 5, 1968, in Los Angeles, California.
* Policemen assassinated the deputy chairman of the Illinois chapter of the Black Panther Party, Fred Hampton, on December 4, 1969, in Chicago, Illinois.

Then there was the Birmingham Church bombing that killed four young girls in 1963, and four Kent State students were killed by the National Guard during an anti-war demonstration in 1970.

And now all this. Glen Beck is dangerous and should be arrested for threatening to kill Nancy Pelosi. I didn't like George W. Bush as president. I hated his policies and administration. I never ever entertained the idea of killing him and would have been horrified and outraged if anyone had attempted it. I never liked George Wallace but was sorry someone shot him. Violence scares me.

Don't Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and who knows who else understand that they can't say the things they do because some nutcase is going to follow through with it? There are enough dangerous people out there without encouraging them. What they are doing is not free speech. It's inciting lunatics. The easily manipulated who would consider it a claim to fame will try to kill someone. Don't people realize what is going on? This is not something to play around with. Now I'm not only sad but scared. Something bad is going to happen, but I pray that it won't.

I recommend Beth's post "Godwin, I presume?" on her blog HERE if you haven't already read it. It's excellent and helped inspire this post.

Please check out Marker's blog about this, too. I like the way he thinks!

54 comments:

#Debi said...

I'm curious as to what the list of crimes perpetrated 40 years ago have to do with the health-care reform debate. As far as I know, no one has threatened to kill anyone. A one-liner in a comedy bit is somewhat different than, say, an entire movie about the "assassination" of President Bush.

I have not listened to Sarah Palin speak lately, but I have listened to Beck's and Limbaugh's radio shows lately. If you just listen to even one entire show (yes, it will piss you off, but try it), you will hear them say over and over again that violence is not the answer, that if change is to come, it must be done within the system. Mr. Beck especially says this, and says, accurately, that the fastest way to discredit anything that anyone opposing President Obama's policies might say is to engage in violence of any kind.

I urge you to read the bill before Congress on health care. There are some very scary things in there that, even if Obama does not want to use them in the ways that they can be twisted into, can certainly be used by his successors, whoever they might be. Above all, I encourage you to be open-minded and get information from both sides of the debate, in order to come to an informed opinion.

Sheena Shepard said...

I agree completely with you, Joy. You should send this in to papers for publication. Maybe it would open the eyes of those who are so closed! I listen to MSNBC, CNN, and FOX, so I consider myself open-minded. The people you made reference to in this blog are self-righteous and very close-minded! I'm not sure some are not trying to incite riots as we speak.

doggybloggy said...

it is very sad and scary - I try and not think that ignorance is genetic and that we can break the chain but its hard - remember - billigerence is the currency of the intellectually bankrupt!

Beth said...

You know you're preachin' to the choir, Joy. The other day, I wrote that Limbaugh and others of his ilk are no longer inspiring those who listen to them; they are inciting. I beg to differ with the commenter who writes of Glenn Beck's skit about poisoning Nancy Pelosi as a humorous "one-liner." In such an emotionally charged atmosphere as we're seeing lately, such things are not funny, condone violence, and could quite possibly send a message to someone not altogether there to act on their angry impulses. Beck's skit wasn't even subtle. "DRINK IT." Haha. Hi-freakin'-larious. I have not and will not see the movie referenced, and think it is in bad taste.

Hugs, Beth

Joy said...

Thank you, Sheena!

Right, Doggy! I agree for sure!

That was an excellent post, Beth! So is your comment. :-)

Debi: Let’s see, where to begin?

I’d never heard of that movie until you linked it. I’d think you’d realize from what I wrote in my post that I think it’s horrible and outrageous. Not only would I never watch a movie like that but wouldn’t even tell anyone it exists.

I have listened to Limbaugh, Beck, Palin, and others or wouldn’t know what they said so I could refer to it. I’ve also read quite a bit of the health-care bill and have it bookmarked so I can finish it. That's not the point of my post but how the protests are being conducted.

Yes, there have been threats of violence, so let me also urge you to look at all sides, too. Defending Beck is something I didn’t think you’d do. That was far from being a one-liner in a comedy bit. How can you even call it that? Maybe you’re being manipulated, too.

If you don’t see the connection between violence during the 60’s to what’s going on now, I don’t know what else to say.

David Dust said...

There is absolutely NOTHING humorous about the hatred that Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin and the Focus on Family and the endless countless others who think HATRED is a valid political strategy.

These people HATE the fact that Obama is president. These people HATE that society is slowly showing more tolerant of people who are "different" than they are. These people HATE that THEY are becoming a "minority" in many places in this country. And they HATE that they don't have control over the situation to do anything about it. Elections have consequences, and conservatives have been voted OUT of office in large numbers - for many reasons.

So conservatives YELL. They interfere. They stall. They lie. And they perpetuate HATE. I SERIOUSLY doubt that if you listened to more than about 10 seconds of Rush or Beck (or any of their kind) that you'd hear talk of kittens and sunshine and harmless "one-liners". Of course after 10 seconds of that crap, any RATIONAL person would turn it off. Or vomit.

If you listen to that crap, you will hear the voices of desperation, anger and HATE ... nothing else.

Joy said...

Excellent, David! Wow! You expressed this so well!

Beth said...

David <-- totally rocks.

Sam said...

When I first heard the words "Death Panel" I assumed it had to do with getting sent to Iraq to fight in a war over absolutely nothing. But then again no conservatives want to even acknowledge that this is still going on.

Wonder Man said...

This is very telling of country and I too, am sad to see this come from my home area. It's like nothing's changed

#Debi said...

David: You should re-read your comment and ask yourself who is really spreading HATE (as you put it) here. I am against Obama, because of his POLICIES and his LACK OF TRANSPARENCY. Most of the legislators voting on his bills have not even read them, even now when a good number of their constituents HAVE. By themselves. With no staffers to assist them. I understand that shouting "racist" is the left's most effective way of shutting down debate. That's unfortunate. A better way would be to actually listen to what the other side has to say, then consider whether there could actually be merit to their views. You say that anyone who listens to more than 10 seconds of Limbaugh, etc, is not rational. I say that a rational person will not let themselves be manipulated by artfully edited sound bytes. I challenge you to listen to one complete show of the conservative presenter of your choice. There ARE a few that I will not listen to, such as Michael Savage, but that decision was made after listening to a couple of entire shows. I'm not saying that there is not hate and racism out there, I'm just saying that it is not rampant, as you seem to believe. And the hate and the racism is not confined to one side of the aisle, as it were.

Bob said...

Well, I for one stopped listening when Glenn Beck announced that President Obama had a "problem" with White culture, whatever THAT is. But then he took it a step further and said Obama hates white people.
This enflames those disenfranchised who don't like the idea of a black man from Kenya--another lie--being president of good old white America.
Glenn Beck, by calling the president a racist, has shifted focus off health care discussion--NOT yelling, but discussion.
Sarah Palin talking about "death panels" enraged those same disenfranchised souls who actually believe there is going to be a tribunal to decide who desrves to live or die. That is an ourageously ignorant comment from an outrageously ignorant woman.
The right is using all sorts of "talk" to rile up those epeople feeling left out because they've lost their jobs and their homes and don't like a black man in a white house. When you cannot and will not discuss the issue but rather throw around phrases like "poison Nacy Pelosi" and "Obama hates white people" and "death panels" you are not adding to the discussion, you are very close to shouting FIRE in a crowded movie theater.
I wonder how sad Beck or Palin or Limbaugh will be when someone gets killed at these contentious town hall meetings. Will they feel as though their purpose was served, or will they feel the shame at what their ignorant words have caused?
I would urge people to read for themselves, think for themselves, speak for themselves and act for themselves. Don't let the mnedia guide your every thought.


BTW Brazilliant post, Joy!!
Bra-freakin-zilliant!

David Dust said...

Debi -

SO WHERE ARE THE IDEAS ON YOUR SIDE OF THIS DEBATE??? WHAT IS YOUR SIDE BRINGING TO THE TABLE??? WHAT ARE CONSERVATIVES OFFERING BESIDES TALKING POINTS (WHICH YOU RECITE LIKE ANY GOOD OBEDIENT CONSERVATIVE ROBOT WOULD)ABOUT OBAMA'S "LACK OF TRANSPARENCY" - WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT??? YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS RECITING SOUND BITES AND TALKING POINTS!!!

Seriously - we are having a health care crisis in this country. Democrats have a plan to fix it. And Republicans are HELL BENT on stopping them. If that's not true, then PLEASE Debi - PLEASE - TELL ME WHAT YOUR CONSERVATIVE PLAN FOR HEALTH CARE IS! You claim to have "read the bill" with "no staffers" (congrats) - so you seem like a real go-getter. And since you are so well-informed (even though that scary Obama isn't "transparent" or something), TELL ME WHAT YOU AND YOUR CONSERVATIVE BRETHREN THINK WE SHOULD DO!!!

Besides lie and scream and yell and misinform and HATE. And recite harmless "one-liners"...

Seriously Debi - TELL US WHAT THE CONSERVATIVES LIKE YOU ARE OFFERING, so I can "consider both sides".

Marker said...

I'm sorry, there is a "debate" going on?

Ah, I see, there was one until those mean libruls started "shutting down the debate" by calling people racist.

From Freedom Works:

- Be Disruptive Early And Often: “You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep’s presentation, Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.
– Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate: The goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda. If he says something outrageous, stand up and shout out and sit right back down. Look for these opportunities before he even takes questions.

Ms. Moon said...

I wrote about this too. And as scared as I am that the country is going to fall because it can't support the cost of health care for it's people in the way it's being handled NOW, I am more scared of the fact that people are being so easily led by the hate-mongers without doing one bit of thinking on their own.

David Dust said...

Debi -

When you attended the Tea Bagger Rally on March 21, 2009 in Lexington Kentucky (I read about it on your blog) - didya hear any good "one-liners"?!? I'm sure it was a positive and uplifting experience - with absolutely no HATE.

XOXOXOXOXO

David

Mark in DE said...

You've been tagged!

Snowbrush said...

Debi "I urge you to read the bill before Congress on health care."

There are five bills actually.

I used to listen frequently to Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Michael Medved, Lars Larson, and others--including Michael Savage. Despite their entertaining theatrics, I got to where I couldn't take them anymore because, with the exception of Michael Medved, there was no attempt at fairness. It was all trash the enemy, no matter how blatant the illogic or skewed the facts. There seemed to be the assumption on the part of these people that their listeners were morons, so there was no need to make sense. NPR at least tries to represent both sides, giving them time to answer questions, and prohibiting them from talking over one another.

Yesterday, I heard the leader of the Christian Coalition, and, as with a great many conservatives nowadays, I felt embarrassed for him. If there is any intelligence or integrity on the part of most vocal segment of the right at this juncture, I'm unaware of it, and, like Joy, it scares me. They seem to be believe that democracy is great as long as they win, but if they don't win, all bets are off. Then it's time to "take back America," and this would appear to leave room for pretty much anything. It's not unimaginable that at least some those who would deny their opponents the right to speak at town-hall meetings might take measures to silence them permanently if they persist.

Other than hysteria, I don't know what the right has going for it at this point. Unfortunately, hysteria seems to be serving it well.

Joy said...

Thank you for your voices of reason from the reality-based population, David, Bob, Ms. Moon, Sam, Wonder Man, and Marker!

Snowbrush, I am especially glad that you took the time to write that reasoned, intelligent response. That is exactly how I feel, and you expressed your ideas so well!

Debi, please listen to and read some different sources. Be really informed instead of parroting the right-wingers. All my ideas and emotions in this post are my own.

Mark in DE said...

Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, et al belong to the party of FEAR. They create and perpetrate FEAR to keep people from thinking because they're too busy feeling the FEAR. FEAR of terrorists. FEAR of gay marriage. FEAR of healthcare reform. FEAR, FEAR, FEAR.

I prefer a party of hope and change, but that's just me.

#Debi said...

Wow, so much to address, so little time...

There are, in fact, issues that need to be reformed in health care. Here are some of the ideas I've heard that make sense to me:

1. Tort Reform. If you want legislation that will bring down the costs of health care, tort reform is one of a few that will immediately bring the costs associated with medical care down. Doctors have to pay such high malpractice insurance premiums, even if they are good doctors with exemplary treatment records. If a cap were put on the sometimes outrageous and frivolous lawsuits that unscrupulous people bring, malpractice insurance rates would come down, and that cost savings could be passed on to patients. Additionally, doctors have to practice CYA medicine in ordering tests that might not actually be needed so that they can ward off these frivolous lawsuits. These unnecessary tests could be eliminated by tort reform, and doctors could actually get back to giving quality care to patients.

2. Quit giving illegal aliens "free" health care. The burden of people who are here illegally is borne by all the paying patients. You've maybe heard the saying, "There's no free lunch." Well, it's true. All the medications, supplies, and hospital staff's time has to be paid for, and it should be by those receiving them, not law-abiding people.

3. Stop with the "cafe standards" of insurance coverage. As laws stand now in most states, insurance companies are required to provide coverage for services that some individuals might not ever use. I, for instance, will never have children; however, my insurance policy is required to include pre-natal care. If we make health insurance more like car insurance, where you can choose what services you want to be covered and what deductibles you have, health insurance rates would go down for everyone and more people could maybe afford it.

These are just some of the ideas that I would put forth as an alternative to the Administration's current plan(s), in any of their incarnations. I would list more, but this is far too long already. Btw, David, I wonder if you realize that ALL CAPS is read as shouting in comment-speak. Please note who is doing that, and who is not. Also, since you asked, the March 21st Tea Party was, in fact, very peaceful and uplifting. There were people there of all ages and several different political parties and persuasions. The speakers there were all very conscious of the fact that it is not just President Obama or the Dems that need to hear our voice; the Republicans also seem to be deaf to what the majority of Americans are concerned about.

#Debi said...

Snowbrush: "It's not unimaginable that at least some those who would deny their opponents the right to speak at town-hall meetings might take measures to silence them permanently if they persist." You are so very right, and that is exactly what those of us in the "minority" are afraid of. It's all very well for Hillary Clinton to shout that dissent is patriotic, but when those on the other side do exactly the same thing, we are called everything from zombies to nazis. Not to mention beaten for our trouble...

#Debi said...

Joy: "All my ideas and emotions in this post are my own." I know that, and I expect you to understand that the same goes for me.

David Dust said...

Darling Debi -

The corporate insurance companies and Big Pharma would be so proud of you for cutting and pasting their talking points for them. Do you get some kind of monetary compensation from them, or is this just a hobby for you?

I especially have a problem with your typical, xenophobic "quit giving Illegals free stuff" portion of your manifesto. Illegal immigrants are here. Illegal immigrants do the jobs that you and I aren't willing to do. That's a fact and it's not going to change.

Sometimes these people will get sick. And in your typical "uncompassionate conservative" mode, you say - SCREW THEM. Let them die. At least if I'm reading what you cut/pasted correctly.

What about a woman who was born in Mexico, and got into the U.S. illegally, with a couple of kids (who are U.S. citizens) who works hard every day cleaning hotel rooms to keep the tourists visiting and the economy going in your state of Kentucky? Or the man who works at your favorite restaurant 60 hours/week chopping vegetables in the hot basement and hosing down the parking lot at 5:00 am before you and the rest of the customers arrive. What if one of those people gets hit by a car and must be rushed to the emergency room??? What if one of them ends up with a brain tumor or has a heart attack? What shall we do with them, and their U.S. citizen children, Debi???

Oh, that's right, DEPORT THEM. Got it. HEALTHCARE PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!

Debi darling, I got news for you. Remember those kids who are now U.S. citizens?? They aren't going anywhere! And they're going to grow up to be voters. And they're going to remember how much Republicans and Conservative "care" about them. And they are going to vote against your candidates. And Republicans will become more and more of a Southern, White, irrelevant MINORITY party.

And me and my Hispanic boyfriend are going to have just the BEST GIGGLE about it all... as we prepare for our BIG GODLESS GAY WEDDING!

XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO

#Debi said...

You assume that I have a problem with your BIG GODLESS GAY WEDDING. (See, that I cut and pasted. The rest, with the exception of direct quotes from these comments, I wrote out myself. From my own brain, which has been no more influenced by the people I listen to than yours has by the people you listen to.) What you and your life partner do is none of my business, just as what I do with my health care is none of the government's business. In fact, your precious Obama is far more against gay marriage than I am, but I get that your world-view has to pigeonhole people into stereotypes than deal with them honestly, one on one. Good luck in your future...

David Dust said...

Debi -

Thanks for your good wishes. But you didn't answer my question. What shall we do with the sick illegals who work very hard doing the jobs you and I won't do?? Or those of us who are citizens and work in jobs who don't provide health care?? Like my best friend who barely makes minimum wage working in retail. He is forced to go to the Emergency Room when he is sick - because his job doesn't offer health insurance - and he doesn't make enough money to afford private insurance.

What shall we do about them Debi???

Snowbrush said...

Debi, I'm sorry your responses to "Babble On" were partially met with what I interpret as mean-spirited sarcasm. I try to avoid such things in my own responses, but when I feel strongly about an issue, I fear that I am not always as respectful as I should be.

Brian said...

Sounds like David has some serious anger management issues!

David Dust said...

Debi -

Still waiting...

XOXOXOXOXOXO

#Debi said...

David, I'm the first to admit that I don't have all the answers. I am sorry for your friend and his health issues. All I am saying is that if people coming here illegally knew that we mean what we say when we pass immigration laws, then maybe they would consider more carefully the decision to come in the first place. I don't believe in the whole "jobs that Americans won't do" thing. I believe that, as evidenced by the very presence of illegal aliens, people will do whatever it takes to take care of their families, if it comes down to it. If illegals were not doing the jobs that they are doing now, there are nearly 10% of the American workforce available to take up that slack, if we give them the opportunity. As to people like your friend, if he is a legal resident, then there are already state-funded plans in most places to take up that slack. I also believe that, if the gov't stepped out of the role of micromanaging people's lives, there would spring up clinics run by different charities, both religious and secular. Americans, as a whole, are very generous people and would give (voluntarily) to causes like that. Some of us just get our backs up when we are forced to do so.

David Dust said...

Debi -

So your plan for the 20-40 million United States citizens who are currently uninsured is for them to wait for clinics to "spring up"?? Why haven't these magic clinics "sprung up" before now?? What about the person who is uninsured and is hit by a car TODAY??

That is not a plan, that's a fairy tale - and you know it. The truth is that conservatives have NO plan for the uninsured. And that doesn't really seem to bother you/them at all, now does it?

#Debi said...

You're not listening and you're not being constructive. Feel free to have the last word--I'm done throwing pearls before swine...

Brian said...

I very much would like to jump in on this discourse with David but agree with Debi that at this point it would not bear much fruit. As I said earlier, it appears you have anger management issues David. For one, trying to shout down some one who takes a point of view different then yours. They have medication available for that kinda rage.

Joy said...

Debi, I agree with the need for tort reform and major insurance changes. If you go to doctors as much as I do, you realize how frustrating it is to have them in charge of what my doctors, who know, me can and cannot do. They are making lots of money denying coverage that we pay for, too.

We need national health coverage here. Too many people are uninsured and underinsured. I don't have the statistics for it but believe most of them are citizens who don't or can't get adequate insurance or any insurance. There are some illegal aliens who receive medical care but those are not the majority of the ones we're all paying for.

You do not reflect the majority of opinion on this. Several polls have shown that Americans want national health care.

Joy said...

Just so you know, this is not my son Brian who made those comments but someone I don't know. He must be a cohort of Debi's.

David might shout from time to time but his comments are based in reality, reason, and compassion. There's no need to call him names and attack his "wits" here and on Facebook. Besides, I don't notice that you paid any attention to any of the intelligent, reasonable comments on here, Debi.

Snowbrush said...

I'm with Debi on her reasons for ending the conversation, Joy. I considered David to be positively vicious in his support of compassion.

Beth said...

My my, things have really been hopping here since I left my initial comments!

If David is angry, he has a right to be. I'm angry, too. Angry at the lack of compassion I'm seeing in so many. Angry at the belief that decent health care is the right of the privileged and ironically, the healthy, not a basic human right for all. Angry at the naiveté that leads people like Whole Foods CEO John Mackey write about how we should change the tax forms so that people can contribute to a health care fund for the uninsured. Get real. The majority of people I'm seeing at these meetings aren't going to give up one red cent of their money to that little kid in the city who needs to go to the doctor, especially if the kid is black or Hispanic. THAT is reality.

Reality is also an online friend who has considered moving to Canada so that her daughter can get the health care she needs for her life-threatening condition. Her insurance is running out, and no insurance company will cover her. Reality is another online friend who had a lump in her breast and couldn't afford to have a biopsy to see if it was cancerous. Reality is an elderly, retired relative who had to declare bankruptcy because of several major illnesses, including cancer. That is reality for millions of people, and it is SHAMEFUL. The world is watching.

I also find humor in the situation, though, when people say they want the government out of their lives. Are we to discontinue Medicare? Social Security? The CDC? The FDA? The NIH? The DOT? The NPS? It's a ludicrous argument.

Health care reform is coming in some form. I'm not entirely sure what form it will take, but it will happen. It is inevitable, and it is necessary.

Brian said...

Seriously Joy, I think you need to read David's comments again and reconsider who is calling people names and being condescending.
It is this sort of "compassion" from David that drives a wedge between people. It would be nice if people could be civil but evidently your cohort, David, has no plans on being civil with others who just don't happen to think as he does. That's the problem with the left in America! The party of inclusion is actually the party of exclusion!

Snowbrush said...

I'm not denying that it's an outrageous situation or that anger is not a reasonable response. Also, like Joy, I found David's actual questions about healthcare appropriate.

There are a list of queries that Quakers use for self-examination. One of them is along the lines of, "Do I oppose war in the spirit of war?" A like question might be, "Do I support compassion in the spirit of hatefulness?" When we only show compassion to those who agree with us, we divide the world into the righteous "us" and the evil "them," and this perpetuates the problem that we're trying to solve.

miss alaineus said...

dang joy you weren't kidding.

1) in order to have 'cafe-style' heath insurance plans you need to eliminate each and every clause that can deny coverage based on pre-existing medical conditions.

2) in a country that was basically discovered/ settled due to the imperialistic nature of other european countries the irony of complaining about 'illegals' gets my funny bone. no one is originally 'from america' and at one time or another just about every family had a status that would be considered 'illegal' by today's standards.

3) tort reform still doesnt give everyone equal access to healthcare. it allows doctors to make more of a profit because they spend less of their bottom line on insurance.

i'm with joy and beth, david and sheria on this one. we need REFORM now.

a good friend of mine made an interesting point last night. the kids who were protesting in the 60's are now the ones so desperately trying to maintain the status quo as established by the mass media. what ever happened to the generation that wanted to change everything? shame, shame, shame.

xxalainaxx

David Dust said...

Joy, Beth, Miss Alaineous:

Ya'll rock.

XOXOXOXOXOXOXO

Debster said...

Well you can always do what loads of people do, buy a plane ticket to London and have free health care here until you are better.

Snowbrush said...

"buy a plane ticket to London and have free health care here until you are better."

THAT can be our new government sponsored health care program--plane tickets to London for all sick Americans.

Miss Ginger Grant said...

WOW! That Debi Dyke is one hate-filled bitch! Maybe someday she will learn to love herself for who she is! Until then... I'm iggin' her!

Sheria said...

Wow, I'm exhausted from reading all of the comments. I'm afraid that I don't have anything good to say about Debi's comments so I'll just say nothing on that subject.

Joy, I think that your entry is so on target and your argument is very logically laid out and reasonable. I wonder how it is that people can dismiss the needs of others so casually, believing that some people just don't deserve health care because of their legal status or employment status. Especially as so many of the same people are quick to assert that America was founded on Christian values. I've never heard Christianity teach that you only help your neighbor if you judge them and find them to be deserving of help.

David Dust said...

Sheria -

Sorry, I forgot to say this the first time, you ROCK also.

And Miss Ginger ... GURRRRRLLLLLLL ... NO YOU DI-INT?!?!!! :)

xoxoxoxoxoxoxo

kayce. said...

just want to note real quick that debi's "healthcare reform" plan is pulled nearly word-for-word ~ including arrangement and supporting points ~ from the whole foods' ceo's op-ed.

and damn, i'm kinda sad i missed this comment debate as it was going on, lol, but i'm glad that we're at least talking about healthcare reform in a venue where no one can be talked over or shouted down... hmmm: the internet = the new townhall? ^_^

david, joy: you are brilliant and i adore you!

Joy said...

Thanks, Kayce! :-)

That's quite interesting about those "original" health care reform ideas she thought of all by herself, isn't it? Thanks for pointing that out!

#Debi said...

OK, you've tempted me back in. Joy, you might want to go actually look at that article Kayce pointed out, which I had to Google to find, since I hadn't read it before. The only thing I mentioned that he did is tort reform, and it's nowhere near word for word. Except for the 2 words "tort" and "reform". I'm surprised you have been online friends with me for so long, seeing as you seem to think I'm such an idiot. I did at least used to respect you...

Joy said...

My original point was about how scared I am because of these men with assault rifles and guns in holsters at Obama events. People were arrested for wearing anti-Bush t-shirts at his. Why are these people allowed to have those guns? Things are too volatile for that to be going on. Many of us who lived through the violence during the 60's have PTSD from it and don't want that to happen again.

Then you made incendiary comments that were combative and attacked me. OK, I got sarcastic which wasn't helpful You made me angry. It went downhill from there.

Now you've decided that I think you're an idiot. I never said that. Your remark about not respecting me hurt my feelings. That was mean.

This is wearing me out. No more. I asked you not to make any more of those comments that derail discussion and parrot the neo-cons, and you said you could do that but didn't.

I'd like to be able to write what I want to on my own blog without all this drama. I'm ranting and blowing off steam - not debating. If you don't like it, quit reading it.

#Debi said...

Here's the thing: when people post political commentary on their blogs, I assume that they want to have open and honest dialogue about whatever the issue is. I get that I was wrong about that in your case. I have gone back and re-read my comments, and had several of my friends (on both sides of the issue) do the same, in order to see if I missed something. All of them tell me that they think my comments were respectful, but stated my opinions. Telling someone repeatedly that they cut and paste talking points rather than have intelligently formed opinions is in fact telling them that they don't have the intelligence to form their own opinions, so yeah, you called me an idiot. Several times. Then you allowed your other commenters to "gang bang" me, not with genuine reasons for they way they believe, like David, but with epithets and profanity. Not even the coarsest of my gay friends call other people a dyke. (I respect David, btw, because he actually took the time to state the reasons for his beliefs. That is a starting point for real discourse.) The fact that you let continue the verbal mass beating of one person who only wished to present the other side of the issue is no better than the SEIU thugs that beat up innocent T-shirt sellers at town hall meetings. So, yes, I have lost respect for you. I thought that you were a genteel Southern lady who just happened to hold different political views than me.

Beth said...

"Gang bang?" Um...I don't think so.

David Dust said...

Just for the record - I apologized to Debi for being an "argumentative ass" (over on her blog). I knew I wasn't going to change her mind - but I yelled and screamed anyway - just for arguments sake. And I didn't accomplish a damn thing.

I still believe what I believe, but I didn't have to express it the way I did.

My MOTHER, on the other hand, wanted to start fighting when she read the "Pearls before Swine" comment. Luckily, I talked her down... :)

#Debi said...

David, I left you a note at my place. Thanks. I thought about that comment after I hit "send"--I didn't mean to call you a pig, it's just an expression, but I was afraid you might interpret it that way. Sorry if I offended anyone with that...